E85

E85: SBF's crypto bailout, Zendesk sells for ~$10B, buyout targets, US diplomacy, media noise

2022-06-30 spoken.md · speaker-labeled ▶ watch ← E84 all episodes E86 →

5
ideas born
17
ideas moved
32
captures · 4 voices
3
dissenting
+353.7
conviction added
-75.1
decay · 77 silent

Every number here is replayed from score_events — the same ledger the pool ranks on. Decay is what the 77 ideas nobody mentioned gave up this week; it applies only when an episode is processed.

Tier crossings

conviction thresholds crossed by this episode — 65 / 45 / 15 · ideas born here show where they landed. why 65 isn't always green

▲ +69.2 📈 Stock-based comp and Evergreen dilution get repriced born at green threshold 69.2 still ember — green gate not met
▲ +63.4 📈 Private equity takes out the busted post-IPO cohort born at watch 63.4
▲ +55.3 🏛️ Crypto collapse triggers a regulatory crackdown that kills the opportunity born at watch 55.3
▲ +10.2 🪙 Picking individual tokens loses money — own managed/indexed crypto instead ember watch 43.3 → 53.5
▲ +31.6 🤖 Bottoms-up SaaS hits a growth wall — only the scaled platforms escape born at ember 31.6
▲ +31.5 🏦 Own the debt, not the equity, of the tech survivors born at ember 31.5
▲ +20.5 🛢️ War plus fertilizer costs cause a global crop shortfall and famine in a year dormant ember 9.1 → 29.5
▲ +17.7 🤖 AlphaFold's open proteome kickstarts a drug-discovery wave dormant ember 8.8 → 26.5
▲ +11.3 🏛️ China takes Taiwan and the silicon chokepoint forces US intervention dormant ember 5.7 → 17.0

Kill dates that landed since E84

1 hit · 1 partial · 0 miss — windows that closed after 2022-06-24 and up to 2022-06-30, auto-scored against price data and never hand-set. verdict · R · α

ideaverdictRαclosed
🏛️ Antitrust breaks Apple's App Store gatekeeping and 30% take rate PARTIAL -7.0% +0.2 2022-06-25
🌍 Delta is not the last one — more variants this fall, a tough winter HIT +30.0% +37.3 2022-06-25

Who moved the board

each voice's force on conviction this episodesupports and opposes, weighted exactly as the replay applied them · share = % of this episode's movement

Chamath
Chamath
12 captures · 34% of movement · 2 ideas born
+123.2 / -12.1 → net +111.1
Jason
Jason
7 captures · 33% of movement · 2 ideas born
+133.0 → net +133.0
Friedberg
Friedberg
5 captures · 20% of movement · 1 idea born
+69.0 / -11.1 → net +57.9
Sacks
Sacks
8 captures · 13% of movement
+51.7 → net +51.7

What got argued (17 ideas)

ordered by how hard each idea moved · quotes are verbatim from the transcript, timestamps deep-link into the episode

NEW IGV 📈 Stock-based comp and Evergreen dilution get repriced closed 35 ▲ +69.2 0.0 → 69.2

Institutional shareholders stop excusing 2.5-4% a year of dilution from stock-based comp and automatic Evergreen grants: the SBC add-back that makes unprofitable software look free-cash-flow positive gets exposed as a shell game, high-SBC software is marked down for it, and Silicon Valley compensation shifts toward cash with the standard $400k engineer salary getting challenged.

plays IGV ·primary WCLD evals 2023-06-30
Friedberg
Friedberg support ×3 explicit_prediction ▶ 50:54
it seems to me that a lot of the big portfolio managers of big institutional funds are starting to pay really close attention to this quote unquote standard in Silicon Valley that stock based comp expense has become so high and Evergreens have become kind of a standard. ... And I don't think it would be too surprising, number one, to see cash salaries go up. And number two, as a result of that, to see salaries become rationalized in Silicon Valley, where engineers may start to get challenged on the standard 400k per year that everyone's become used to
Chamath
Chamath support ×3 explicit_prediction ▶ 54:21
when people talk about free cash flow, they tout it a lot, tech companies tout it a lot, because you're allowed to add back in stock-based comp as if it didn't exist. ... So when the only source of free cash is stock-based comp, that free cash flow doesn't reflect the company's true profitability. This is what I mean by people play these shell games with these numbers
Sacks
Sacks support ×2 explicit_prediction ▶ 58:07
This stock-based compensation is going to go away, because they're going to get rid of all the high-price engineers. They're going to get rid of a lot of the high-price executives.
Jason
Jason support ×2 sentiment ▶ 1:00:40
So this is one of the things that's broken in Silicon Valley is that the comp in the stock-based comp is not tied to performance. It's like just giving people guaranteed salaries.
NEW PTON 📈 Private equity takes out the busted post-IPO cohort closed 29 ▲ +63.4 0.0 → 63.4

Zendesk's $10.2B all-cash take-private is the template: beaten-down post-IPO software and consumer-tech names with cash, a subscription base and a bloated cost structure get bought by PE at a premium, levered up and run for free cash flow. With strategic M&A blocked by antitrust, PE is the only exit channel left, so the wave continues — Peloton is named as the next one taken out.

plays PTON ·primary BX IGV evals 2023-06-30
Chamath
Chamath support ×2 sentiment ▶ 41:24
At the end of the day, the private equity firms are not trying to make, you know, this $10 billion go to 25 They're trying to make the 2 billion of equity they put in go to three. And there's a lot of ways that two can go to three before 10 goes to 25
Sacks
Sacks support ×3 explicit_prediction ▶ 52:36
you have to ask the question, why are these highly sophisticated private equity firms buying it for $10 billion? I think they're going to make a lot of money. ... They are going to slash the hell out of the cost structure.
Jason
Jason support ×3 explicit_prediction ▶ 1:00:40
There's going to be a bunch of companies in this position, so look for this as a trend. Peloton, 964 million last quarter in revenue, lost 757 million in the quarter. ... That company is going to get taken out.
NEW COIN 🏛️ Crypto collapse triggers a regulatory crackdown that kills the opportunity closed 34 ▲ +55.3 0.0 → 55.3

The 3AC / Voyager / BlockFi blow-up hands regulators their moment: district-attorney and DOJ discovery plus Gensler's securities framing turn crypto into the most heavily regulated space in finance, with most tokens treated as unregistered securities. That compresses the addressable opportunity for US-regulated exchanges and for the alt-token complex.

plays COIN ·primary cg:cardano evals 2023-06-30
Jason
Jason support ×3 explicit_prediction ▶ 17:36
All of this is going to inspire a lot of district attorneys and DOJ activity. ... The discovery is going to be bonkers and it's all going to be regulated to the point of in which it kills a lot of the opportunity. I think this is going to become the most regulated space.
Chamath
Chamath support ×2 sentiment ▶ 21:50
I tend to think at this point, Bitcoin probably has to be regulated like a security, even if it is not, and it's more of a commodity only because of the volume and the sheer size of both the market and the potential fallout
NEW PANW 🤖 Bottoms-up SaaS hits a growth wall — only the scaled platforms escape closed 7 CONTESTED ▲ +31.6 0.0 → 31.6

Bottoms-up SaaS growth curves are terminal within seven to ten years; forced up-market the mid-caps run into Salesforce and Microsoft bundling and discounting with unproven enterprise products, so growth stalls and the equity gets orphaned (Zendesk is the case study). Only a handful ever make the jump to scaled enterprise software — Salesforce, Workday, ServiceNow — and Palo Alto Networks is the next closest.

plays PANW ·primary CRM NOW evals 2023-06-30
Chamath
Chamath support ×2 explicit_prediction ▶ 36:55
The easiest SaaS company to start and the one that folks, really talented investors like Sacks will fund overwhelmingly over others, are what's called bottoms up SaaS ... the unfortunate part of that growth curve is that it's pretty terminal within seven to ten years. And after that, you're forced to go to the mid market, and then eventually you're forced to go enterprise. ... Palo Alto Networks is probably the next closest one now.
NEW HYG 🏦 Own the debt, not the equity, of the tech survivors closed 14 ▲ +31.5 0.0 → 31.5

Chamath's repositioning of his public-markets book: in beaten-down tech the better risk/reward is up the capital structure — buy the debt of the few companies you believe survive, because debt is senior to the equity and gets paid before the equity is wiped, rather than trying to time the bottom in the shares.

plays HYG ·primary ANGL BKLN evals 2023-06-30
Chamath
Chamath support ×3 positioning ▶ 1:03:24
I've transitioned most of my public markets time to focus on debt. ... But what is really juicy is the few companies that you think will survive and specifically making sure you're protected in the capital structure, which means to own the debt because the debt is always senior to the equity.
DBA 🛢️ War plus fertilizer costs cause a global crop shortfall and famine in a year closed 22 CONTESTED ▲ +20.5 9.1 → 29.5
Jason
Jason support ×2 sentiment 6mo horizon ▶ 1:13:19
if this war is never ending and the famine and the impact on 40 million people or something like that, that Friedberg predicted is actually going to happen in the next six months
XBI 🤖 AlphaFold's open proteome kickstarts a drug-discovery wave closed 23 ▲ +17.7 8.8 → 26.5
Friedberg
Friedberg support ×3 explicit_prediction ▶ 1:32:47
And that opens up a whole new area of research in medicine, gene therapy, and new things that we can think about targeting to fix a lot of these underlying diseases. ... It's an incredible example of how AlphaFold has been used to solve this really misunderstood or never really well understood aspect of biology that is at the root cause of so much of disease and creates all this opportunity for medicine and therapeutics, research and discovery.
CMF 🏛️ California wealth tax fails to pass — but the proposal alone drives the exodus closed 48 CONTESTED ▲ +14.2 18.6 → 32.7
Sacks
Sacks support ×3 explicit_prediction 12mo horizon ▶ 13:17
this is really going to hurt the California tax base, because if you start raising taxes on, you know, California millionaires, more of them are going to leave the state, and then that tax revenue leaves the state. And so it actually hurts the general budget. ... I think we're due for a huge budget shortfall next year because there's going to be no capital gains.
TSM 🏛️ China takes Taiwan and the silicon chokepoint forces US intervention closed 30 CONTESTED ▲ +11.3 5.7 → 17.0
Jason
Jason support ×1 sentiment ▶ 1:18:06
Okay, and you know what's also highly predictable? Is that China considers Taiwan a renegade province. ... it will be even worse with Taiwan. I mean, if we think that this is difficult. Can you imagine this kind of escalation with a capable adversary?
cg:cardano 🪙 Picking individual tokens loses money — own managed/indexed crypto instead closed 30 ▲ +10.2 43.3 → 53.5
Chamath
Chamath support ×3 explicit_prediction ▶ 24:05
And here, some folks have just, you know, basically escaped with billions and billions and billions of dollars. And the bag holder is just, you know, a retail investor. ... Because the level of grip that's happened in this market is extreme.
BTC-USD 🪙 Crypto bubble bursts in 2022 — 90% of projects blow up closed 59 ▲ +9.7 77.3 → 87.0
Friedberg
Friedberg support ×2 explicit_prediction ▶ 18:52
I mentioned at our predictions episode last year that all of these smaller things are going to get blown out. These quote unquote cryptocurrencies, even though many of them don't really act like a currency. And, you know, maybe Bitcoin itself persists. And it seems to me like that's always going to have good staying power.
Sacks
Sacks support ×2 sentiment ▶ 26:11
just because there's a future technology platform doesn't tell you what the pricing should be. And the price action got decoupled from the level of progress in the space. ... And that's where it just got ahead of itself. That was the tulip part of it.
Chamath
Chamath support ×3 explicit_prediction ▶ 33:32
But that also has to happen on the crypto markets, in the crypto markets. And if you look at that chart, what it really tells you is that the baseline price of Bitcoin, where things seemed, you know, where rational supply and demand were meeting each other before all these, you know, 5, 10,000, 3500 to 5,000. ... That's still 75% from you.
QQQ 📈 Tech drawdown is in the eighth inning - the bottom is close closed 13 CONTESTED ▲ +9.0 15.7 → 24.7
Jason
Jason support ×1 sentiment ▶ 34:14
One thing that I thought was an interesting sign of potentially bouncing along the bottom.
Chamath
Chamath reversal ×3 explicit_prediction ▶ 1:04:23
You used this term, Jason, before like skipping along the bottom. ... I just think it's like psychological wishful thinking as opposed to sort of like a rational summation of the actual.
Friedberg
Friedberg support ×2 positioning ▶ 1:07:52
I am looking at buying high quality share businesses, buying shares of high quality businesses right now. I think that there are things that are cheaply priced.
XLE ⚡ Global conflict era begins — energy and defense outperform closed 73 ▲ +7.0 68.7 → 75.8
Sacks
Sacks support ×2 sentiment ▶ 1:08:24
the third part of this is the overhang of this war in Europe, the Ukraine War, which is now threatening to become a forever war.
Chamath
Chamath support ×3 explicit_prediction 6mo horizon ▶ 1:11:38
Russia is depriving Europe of Natgas. ... Where is the oil going to come from? OPEC is basically still stiff farming the United States with respect to expanded production capacity. ... You could have $180 a barrel oil by November, December when it's cold, not just here, but in continental Europe.
IPO 📈 2021 is the peak of the risk-capital golden era closed 80 CONTESTED ▲ +4.6 82.5 → 87.1
Sacks
Sacks support ×3 explicit_prediction ▶ 1:02:21
there's been a regime change in the public markets. The way that investors look at these companies is changing. It's not about growth at all costs anymore. ... What investors want right now, they still want growth, but they want it with low burn. High burn operations are going to get punished.
Chamath
Chamath support ×2 sentiment ▶ 1:03:24
Because what David said I think is 100,000% right, what Sacks just said. There is a massive, massive regime change here.
SPY 🌍 Supply-chain crunch tips the US into 1970s-style stagflation next year closed 73 CONTESTED ▼ -4.2 87.0 → 82.7
Chamath
Chamath support ×3 explicit_prediction 4mo horizon ▶ 1:04:23
Jerome Powell just said, I will tank the economy in order to beat inflation. He just said it in the Wall Street Journal. ... I think you're going to see eight and nine percent inflation prints for at least the next three or four months minimum.
Friedberg
Friedberg oppose ×2 sentiment ▶ 1:05:46
I don't like the term quote recession as if it's some absolute negative thing. ... negative GDP growth coming off of inflated GDP doesn't feel to me as systemically challenging to the economy as some other circumstance
Sacks
Sacks support ×3 explicit_prediction ▶ 1:08:24
So I don't see how we get out of this bear market until you get clarity and resolution of inflation and rates, number one, slow down to recession, number two, and basically this war in Europe, number three.
ARKK 🌍 Fed ending QE drains liquidity-dependent assets in 2022 closed 76 ▲ +2.6 92.6 → 95.2
Sacks
Sacks support ×3 explicit_prediction ▶ 28:02
you saw an increase in speculative investments across the board, including but not limited to crypto. So again, you know, when the Fed prints too much money, it creates asset bubbles.
Chamath
Chamath support ×3 explicit_prediction ▶ 1:15:20
we need to reset supply and demand by taking $30 trillion out of global markets ... And we're the only one that's doing quantitative tightening right now. The ECB hasn't even started taking all this crazy money out.
QQQ 🌍 American exceptionalism soars and the economy booms in 2022 closed 7 CONTESTED ▼ +0.0 0.0 → 0.0
Jason
Jason reversal ×2 explicit_prediction 12mo horizon ▶ 1:05:20
How many quarters will this recession be? If we had to pick a range, pick a two quarter range. ... I'm thinking three to five.

Episode digest

written during extraction and stored in data/extractions/ep085.json — the auditable source of truth, including everything market-adjacent that did not earn a capture

The crypto contagion episode, recorded live inside the 3AC unwind and SBF's rescue lending, and it is a study in the besties being right about the market and wrong about the man. Jason opens on the British Virgin Islands liquidation of Three Arrows, the $650M it stiffed Voyager, and the credit lines FTX extended to Voyager ($200M) and BlockFi ($250M) — 'according to early BlockFi investors, the FTX credit line would wipe out all existing shareholders.' Nobody calls SBF the JP Morgan of crypto, but nobody questions him either: Chamath treats his 'oblique tweet' that some exchanges are 'already the walking dead' as authoritative and twice cites him as the source of truth on off-chain activity ('I'm sure that FTX could do a lot to help understand a lot of this off-chain activity'), and when Sacks attacks him it is purely as a California taxpayer, not as a counterparty — 'I'm mainly pissed off that SBF is trying to raise my taxes in California,' over the 0.75%-on-$5M ballot initiative he is funding with Dustin Moskovitz. Chamath's read on SBF is the one that ages worst: 'he's a very sophisticated player in not just crypto, but frankly, regulated and unregulated finance... I think that he has a very thoughtful game plan,' complete with a compliment to his parents. That praise sits inside a genuinely excellent structural teardown — unregulated off-chain rehypothecation, no clearing house, no chain of custody, DeFi yields that 'never made sense, really. But then none of us really questioned it' — and a table-pounding bearish BTC call: rational supply and demand met at 3,500 to 5,000, which from $20K is 'still 75% from you.' Friedberg reaffirms his own January prediction (small tokens blown out, Bitcoin persists) and argues tokens are securities with no secured interest in anything; Sacks blames the Fed liquidity effect rather than debasement and dates a genuine non-fiat Bitcoin to 'decades in the future.' Jason's new call — DA and DOJ discovery makes this 'the most regulated space,' 'a decade of discovery' — got a fresh idea since crypto-regulatory-correction-survives-2021 is long shut. Segment two is the take-private thesis in full: Zendesk at $10.2B all-cash after turning down $17B, and both Sacks and Jason go directional on it. Sacks: PE 'are going to make a lot of money... more than a billion,' they slash the cost structure and run it for 3-500M of free cash flow, and with Lena Khan blocking strategic M&A, PE is the only exit channel left. Jason names the next target outright — Peloton, 'that company is going to get taken out' — plus BuzzFeed as a flameout, and tells listeners to 'look for this as a trend.' Chamath supplies the mechanics (PE only needs $2B of equity to go to $3B, plus the debt they 'slab off') and his law-of-large-numbers frame: bottoms-up SaaS is 'pretty terminal within seven to ten years,' then Salesforce and Microsoft bundle you to death — only CRM, WDAY, NOW made the jump and 'Palo Alto Networks is probably the next closest one now.' A ten-minute stock-based-comp fight is the sleeper: Friedberg lays out 2.5% annual dilution at Zendesk, the 4% Evergreen grant standard and ISS pushback, and predicts cash salaries rise while the $400K engineer gets challenged; Chamath fights the framing ('that asterisk is an irrelevant asterisk in my opinion') while making the stronger version of the same case, that free cash flow with SBC added back 'is a joke' and quoting Buffett — 'if compensation isn't an expense, what is it?' Two disclosed positions: Chamath has 'transitioned most of my public markets time to focus on debt,' buying the debt of survivors because it is senior to the equity (new idea), and Friedberg is 'buying shares of high quality businesses right now,' longer-term, no names. Two reversals land on E61 annual predictions: Chamath re-reverses tech-drawdown-eighth-inning (his own E64 call, first reversed at E75) by calling Jason's skipping-along-the-bottom 'psychological wishful thinking' next to Powell saying he'll tank the economy; and Jason, the author of us-boom-2022, now prices a three-to-five-quarter recession. Macro: Chamath sees 8-9% prints for three or four months minimum and $180 oil by November-December as Europe freezes and OPEC stiff-arms Washington; Sacks names three overhangs (rates, recession, a Ukraine 'forever war') and says the bear market cannot end until all three resolve, citing a WaPo report that officials would countenance 'a global recession and famine' over letting Russia keep the Donbass; Friedberg refuses the recession framing entirely — negative GDP off an inflated base is not systemic. The Ukraine segment is a long Sacks-Jason realist-vs-interventionist fight with no new tradeable content beyond the energy and famine reads; his three-point settlement call ('that was the deal. That is the deal. That will be the deal') had no live home since ukraine-ceasefire-weeks-away-2022 died 2022-06-19 and he gives no timing, so it was not coined. Science corner closes with a real receipt for the AlphaFold thesis: the Harvard cryo-EM + AlphaFold structure of the nuclear pore complex, which Friedberg ties directly back to the prediction he made a year earlier. No media segment materialized despite the title — the audience-polling debate at the top is show-business, not markets. Labels are clean: all four hosts present at plausible counts, every addressed-by-name handoff resolves to the right next speaker, and content receipts check out (Sacks on Yammer sharing 410 Townsend with Zendesk, Chamath in Italy with ISDAs and credit derivatives, Friedberg on science corner, Jason doing the intros and This Week in Startups).